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| From | Message | Posted by tjaalzchess playcomputerchess.net
4/14/2008 11:03:32 Play computer chess | Subject: Mate with only knight and bisschop??
Message: The endgame is me with only a knight and bishop.
My opponent offers a draw, saying I cant mate her. But is it really impossible to mate someone with bishop, knight and king?
| Posted by chessnovice playcomputerchess.net
4/14/2008 12:23:44 Play computer chess | ...
Message: We can't really talk about ongoing, active games.
| Posted by ganstaman playcomputerchess.net
4/14/2008 12:46:00 Play computer chess |
Message: Right, we can't offer help in these situations, but printed or online material (not tablebases) can. Check out any endgame book, or something like wikipedia. That will legally help you play the ending.
Just for starters, there should be a useful link somewhere on here: en.wikipedia.org ——— Ivanchuk Dominates Chess Olympiad — The chess olympiad in Khanty-Mansiysk, Russia is in full swing, moving into the second half. The Open section has 149 teams listed, nearly 750 chess players. The women section has 115 teams, roughly 575 chess players. Head and shoulders above all players stands Vasyl Ivanchuk. The 41-year old Ukrainian grandmaster smashed everything coming his way so far, winning five straight games and amassing a giant 3357 performance rating. On Tuesday, Ivanchuk added his sixth victory against the Georgian GM Baadur Jobava. His team leads the chess olympiad after seven rounds, having won six matches and drawing one. The 11-round olympiad concludes Sunday, October 3. Ivanchuk was ...
Posted by ionadowman playcomputerchess.net
4/14/2008 13:41:28 Play computer chess | Without looking at the position...
Message: ... I think it is reasonable to make a general response to the question.
Yes: a K+B+N can, in general, force mate against a lone K. But the technique isn't easy. In your game (assuming you are already in such an endgame), you have 50 moves to effect the mate from the last pawn move or capture (there are no more pawns to move, and any further capture will instantly reduce the game to a draw through lack of material). Else, it is a draw. I don't think one can say more at this point...
Cheers,
Ion ——— New Jersey Man Plays Kasparov and Carlsen — Chess players are not movie stars — no one has ever stalked a chess player, at least not for playing chess — but some fans go to great lengths to meet and even play against the game’s best. Jonathan B. Crumiller is a fan, and he lived out a dream this month. Crumiller, who is a master but certainly not a top chess player, is the chief operating officer of Princeton Consultants and lives and works in New Jersey. On Sept. 8, he was in London at a fund-raiser for Anatoly Karpov, the former world chess champion, who is running for president of the World Chess Federation. As part of the event, there was an auction to play a consultation game with Garry Kasparov, another former chess champion, and ...
Posted by ccmcacollister playcomputerchess.net
4/14/2008 16:07:43 Play computer chess | hmmm
Message: He didn't say what Color that Bishop was . . . }8-D ——— Chess stars align in Siberia — The 39th Chess Olympiad began Tuesday in Khanty-Mansiysk, a small Siberian city in Russia. The immense chess tournament has attracted 146 men's teams and 114 women's teams representing 142 nations. Half of the 484 participants in the men's section hold the grandmaster title. The ninth-seeded U.S. men's chess team consists of grandmasters Hikaru Nakamura (Missouri), Gata Kamsky (New York), Alexander Onischuk (Virginia), Yury Shulman (Illinois) and Robert Hess (New York). That's an impressive lineup with a fair chance at a medal. They defeated Faroe Islands, 4-0, and Mongolia, 31/2-1/2, in their first two matches. The sixth-seeded U.S. women's chess team is probably ...
Posted by marinvukusic playcomputerchess.net
4/15/2008 00:54:39 Play computer chess | ...
Message: That is probably the most difficult practical ending in chess (I am not counting studies obviously).
In Blitz:
- I couldn't deliver that mate against a significantly weaker player
- One IM couldn't mate me
- I watched a FM fail to deliver the mate
I am confident I could do it in correspondence chess without any help but it is objectively not to be expected from a player of your rating. That does not mean you can't learn how to do it before you end the game.
Use of tablebases is forbidden. ——— After Four Rounds of the Chess Olympiad, Several Favorites Have Fallen — Seven teams have won all of their matches through the first four rounds of the biennial Chess Olympiad. Four of those teams — the top two Russian teams, Hungary and Armenia — were ranked among the top six at the start, so their standing is no surprise. But three of the leaders — the Netherlands, the Republic of Georgia and Vietnam — are unexpected, in particular the last two, who were ranked No. 20 and 27, respectively, when the chess competition began. Several of the pre-tournament favorites ran into unexpected trouble early on. Ukraine, which was ranked No. 2, gave up a drawn match to Croatia, No. 28, in Round 3. (Matches are between teams of four players). Ukraine is now tied for ...
Posted by tjaalzchess playcomputerchess.net
4/15/2008 01:06:38 Play computer chess |
Message: Thanks for the response.
I wasn't asking for help, but just a simple yes or no ( possible or impossible ), because I had never seen a endgame with knight and bishop.
——— Yemen sacks chess team for playing against Israel — Yemen has sacked the country's chess team and members of the governing body after its players competed against Israel at a chess tournament in Belarus. The Yemeni Sports minister, Hamud Mohammed Ubad, took the unusual decision after chess players ignored instructions to pull out if drawn against Israel, which is widely criticised in the Middle East for its policies towards the Palestinians. "This was an individual action contrary to the policy of Yemen, which refuses any normalisation with Israel," said Mr Ubad, adding that the chess players were on their way home from Minsk. Like several other Middle Eastern countries, Yemen does not have diplomatic relations with Israel and bars ...
Posted by 8ballphoenix playcomputerchess.net
4/15/2008 12:38:14 Play computer chess | Somewhere
Message: Amongst the annotated games a few months ago someone (I can't remember who) posted a few complicated endgame studies, one of which was a K+N+B vs K endgame. Obviously this wouldn't help with the game in question as it only studies from one position, with one sequence of moves, but it does explain the general technique.
Is there any way of searching the annotated games for a particular game?
I've not yet been in a position where I have to achieve this mate, though I have been close a few times. Should it happen I'm not sure I could see it through but it would be interesting to try and I too wouldn't accept a draw offer. I certainly wouldn't expect my opponent to resign though.
Incidentally I have played the person mentioned several times and in her defence have always found her to be a polite and pleasant opponent.
| Posted by ionadowman playcomputerchess.net
4/15/2008 13:34:52 Play computer chess | Bragging time!
Message: I've had B+N+K vs lone K 3 times in the past - and won them all.
I ought to leave it at that, but I have to confess that I've been lucky on all three occasions for the pieces already to be very favourably placed so that the mate was achieved in maybe a dozen or so moves. It helped, too, that I knew what the forced mate position should look like.
It also has to be admitted that all 3 were pick-up games - not a single tournament game among them. The only time I saw such an ending in a tournament game was at the universities' Arts Festival in Auckland, 1972. Both were strong players (I'll call them Roger and Craig), but Craig was expected to win. Instead Roger attacked from the gun, Craig had to defend the whole game and finally baled out into this ending. And Roger could not win it. Not in 50 moves. Draw.
Altogether and interesting endgame.
Cheers,
Ion
| Posted by lighttotheright playcomputerchess.net
4/15/2008 21:28:03 Play computer chess |
Message: That is interesting...a draw between two strong players in this endgame! It's possible.
I know this BN vs. K endgame like the back of my hand. I used to study it all the time before I moved onto the more difficult endgames. I don't even have to think while playing it and can beat anyone or any computer in 32 moves or less from any position. It is easy for me.
Although this particular endgame is rare, studying it is valuable because you learn the relationship between the knight and bishop. This translates into better play in the middle game. Also openings tend to be less timid.
| Posted by marinvukusic playcomputerchess.net
4/16/2008 04:15:02 Play computer chess | Interesting quote from Wikipedia
Message: "Although this is classified as one of the four "basic checkmates" (the others being king and queen; king and rook; or king and two bishops against a lone king), it only occurs in practice approximately once in every 5000 games (Müller & Lamprecht 2001)."
Sounds about right. This is the precise reason many strong players have problems with it in time trouble (and obviously time trouble is common in OTB chess). Everybody learns it at some point in time but after a few years of never even seeing it the player forgets (and does not refresh his memory practicing a technique that is viewed as unlikely to ever be needed).
The method is not 100% intuitive and there is a pretty small margin of error - 33 moves are needed to deliver chackmate in worst case scenarion, and every slip can easily extend the process beyond 50 moves.
| Posted by lighttotheright playcomputerchess.net
4/16/2008 06:51:14 Play computer chess |
Message: Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. Again, the technique to reduce the endgame by the one move seems counter-intuitive at first (but with a deeper analysis it actually makes perfect sense).
Most tutorials on the subject only tell you that you need to drive the King to the edge and then to a corner. The detailed explanations only come with driving the King from the wrong corner into the correct corner and then delivering mate. Most leave it up to the student to figure out how to drive the King out of the center of the board.
If you drive the King out of the center in the proper way, then your King does not need to travel as much to create the necessary opposition to 'force the hand of the defender'. You save at least a move in the worse scenario and are much less likely to make a mistake because the technique is clearer (at least in my mind).
| Posted by tjaalzchess playcomputerchess.net
4/16/2008 07:49:26 Play computer chess | Resigned
Message: to bad my opponent resigned
I was going to checkmate her :
game
The next steps would be :
96. Kh7 Kf7
97. Kh6 Bh4
98. Kh7 Bg5
99. Kh8 Ng6+
100. Kh7 Nf8+
101. Kh8 Bf6#
( mate in 18 moves from last capture)
| Posted by tim_b playcomputerchess.net
4/16/2008 08:42:49 Play computer chess | Nice one!
Message: The title of the tournament is appropriate - it wasn't a draw and you proved it.
| Posted by ionadowman playcomputerchess.net
4/16/2008 13:51:32 Play computer chess | I think I can guess...
Message: ... why your opponent got so toey: she threw away a fine chance to bring the thing to a quick draw. Here's the plot, with white about to play her 40th move:
w
White played 40.h4!!
Now, after Black's reply, it is possible she thought she had blundered...
40...Nf8+
But White's next was the mistake...
41.Kf5?? ...
White had an instant draw with 41.Kd5!, and after the bishop moves, 42.Rh8 ... 43.Rxf8+. Protecting the bishop don't help (41...Nd7 42.Rxd7), nor does taking the rook (41...Nxh7 42.Kxc5). Black had no way to avert the loss of one of the minor pieces, so it's an easy draw. Almost study-like...
Cheers,
Ion
| Posted by tjaalzchess playcomputerchess.net
4/17/2008 00:28:44 Play computer chess |
Message: Yes I also saw that mistake.Before that point I would have been happy with a draw, so I was prepared for a bishop - rook exchange. Things turned out different.
Charles
| Posted by ionadowman playcomputerchess.net
4/25/2008 15:06:10 Play computer chess | Incidentally...
Message: ... If you want to see R+2P vs B+N, check out sago vs ionadowman. Sorry - can't give the link; the game was played nearly a year ago now...
Cheers,
Ion
| Posted by bonsai playcomputerchess.net
4/25/2008 15:32:37 Play computer chess | 32 moves - counter example
Message: Regarding lighttotheright's comment:"Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. "
No, a counter example is white to move (mate in 33):
white: Ka1, Bc1, Nb1
black: Kc2
| Posted by heinzkat playcomputerchess.net
4/25/2008 16:24:23 Play computer chess |
Message:
game
| Posted by lighttotheright playcomputerchess.net
4/26/2008 12:54:36 Play computer chess |
Message: bonsai--That is a good find, but...
When is that position ever going to turn up in a game?
It's a little bit like expecting to be able to mate in the wrong corner, isn't it?
| Posted by tag1153 playcomputerchess.net
5/27/2008 15:46:21 Play computer chess | My first on GK
Message:
gameknot.com
| Posted by ionadowman playcomputerchess.net
5/28/2008 01:00:34 Play computer chess | tag1153...
Message: Not bad! Decisively finished, too.
A belated thanks to heinzkat, too, for providing the link to my game vs sago. I still haven't finished annotating the thing...
Cheers,
Ion
| Posted by buddie playcomputerchess.net
5/28/2008 15:28:43 Play computer chess | K, B + N Mate
Message: Here I am on the wrong end of the K,B + N mate.
game
By the way, anyone played a game on GK longer than 130 moves?
| Posted by ccmcacollister playcomputerchess.net
5/28/2008 16:37:45 Play computer chess | buddie ...
Message: I don't know about other games, but one here on GK was over 3000 moves. Obviously they were trying to make it as long as possible. IMO 130 is quite long for a "real" game.
* * * * * * *
I've only had one of mine, maybe two, go that long in my 30+ years of playing otb tournaments. And the one I recall was an endgame of R vs R+N with no pawns, vs a Master, and took over 8 hours to play! Naturally, I was on the weak side of that ending, but did manage to Draw when we both got so tired an important move was overlooked which made it impossible to be won within the "50 Move Rule".
| Posted by loreta playcomputerchess.net
6/02/2008 06:49:28 Play computer chess | K + B + N vs K
Message: all depends on a color of chessboard ....
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